tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post6035041159658214112..comments2023-06-22T09:14:20.817-07:00Comments on tugandregina: ViabilityReginahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01365663697222601526noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-20264992720723465772008-09-16T09:22:00.000-07:002008-09-16T09:22:00.000-07:00Oh my goodness. Excellent comments everyone. I am ...Oh my goodness. Excellent comments everyone. I am impressed. I am pro life all the way, but I see the congruity of the pro choice stance as well. Ultimately, we all want life and should encourage each other in this endeavor. If more of us would stand side by side with the women we know, really offering emotional, financial, and physical support, more babies would live. I think that is something both sides can agree on and should do regardless of what are laws say or do. This country is made great by the people who are in it, not the legislators.TjandMark/AKA PearlandHawkeyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01477324406425990084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-30688342810977599452008-09-01T16:54:00.000-07:002008-09-01T16:54:00.000-07:00Since you are not a Catholic I will inform you, th...Since you are not a Catholic I will inform you, the Church IS the people. Who do you think is feeding, clothing, nursing and educating? THE PEOPLE. Catholic people.Barbarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00747308009364094199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-64634363412627332052008-08-31T22:40:00.000-07:002008-08-31T22:40:00.000-07:00Good one, Michelle. (You've had several real gems...Good one, Michelle. (You've had several real gems!) :) <BR/><BR/>I must say I'm enjoying this even though I think everyone's tone is getting a little testy. <BR/><BR/>You all are great debators. :) <BR/><BR/>Lisa, come to the conservative/pro life side. ;) We'd love to have you.The Wadeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15805015528223049604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-88354254465686148812008-08-31T18:35:00.000-07:002008-08-31T18:35:00.000-07:00Lisa,you are making broad and unsubstantiated gene...Lisa,<BR/><BR/>you are making broad and unsubstantiated generalizations about pro-lifers. You say that they as a whole care more about a fetus than about a human. That is completely untrue. Scmom uses the Catholic Church, the single largest and consistantly pro-life voice, as an example of pro-lifers who care for all people from conception until natural death, and you reject that example because of the Inquisition which not only happened 500 years ago but of which the "facts" have been grossly misrepresented.<BR/><BR/>Basically, it doesn't matter how much money or time I personally give to help people, if I stole $100 when I was in high school or took drugs when I was in college, I am a low-down scoundrel or a hypocrite?<BR/><BR/>Senator McCain has adopted 3 of his 7 children. Senator Obama has adopted 0 children. Personally, I don't think how many kids you have, whether naturally or through adoption, is wholly relevant, but you brought up the issue as being an indicator of how much somebody cared about the poor and unfortunate.<BR/><BR/>I'll provide you with whatever evidence will convince you that pro-lifers care about all people. What would that take? Must these examples be free from sin? And as long as we're making broad generalizations, in my opinion, liberals are highly self-centered and rarely get their hands dirty with real charitable work. You'd sooner find a lib on a picket line than a soup kitchen line. But that's just how I see things. I'm sure you have plenty of anecdotal evidence to dispute my views.<BR/><BR/>Here is one more point: every cell in my body is marked with my personal DNA: my skin, my hair, my blood, my liver, my eyes, my uterus. When my egg is fertilized by my husband's sperm, that fertilized egg has its own unique DNA, not mine. It doesn't matter if it is in my fallopian tube or my uterus or a petri dish, it is not ME, it is something else. You may call it a clump of cells, but it is not MY clump of cells, because my cells have my DNA.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14591234069872271083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-40572666884388133822008-08-31T16:44:00.000-07:002008-08-31T16:44:00.000-07:00absolutely they were people with souls but there i...absolutely they were people with souls but there is a huge difference from a baby not making it through no fault of anyone and a mother deciding to kill her child. <BR/>you thought someone else's point was mute on something before, i consider this to be<BR/>rReginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01365663697222601526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-71780749507288784002008-08-31T16:34:00.000-07:002008-08-31T16:34:00.000-07:00but not medically or legally ...it had the potenti...but not medically or legally <BR/><BR/>...it had the potential to become a baby but because there was no uterus - the woman's uterus - it could not live<BR/><BR/>also,<BR/><BR/>what about the large percentage of conceptions that fail early on unbeknownst to the mother? did these 'persons' really die??<BR/><BR/>lisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-68288836680561249052008-08-31T11:00:00.000-07:002008-08-31T11:00:00.000-07:00perhaps ectopic is inviable, but it is still a bab...perhaps ectopic is inviable, but it is still a baby <BR/>rReginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01365663697222601526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-42820140308885149372008-08-31T10:25:00.000-07:002008-08-31T10:25:00.000-07:00Also - what about an ectopic pregnancy? The same ...Also - what about an ectopic pregnancy? The same ball of cells but it's not located in a uterus...not viable...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-11545445010182616172008-08-31T10:08:00.000-07:002008-08-31T10:08:00.000-07:00SCMOM - who said anything about the Catholic Churc...SCMOM - who said anything about the Catholic Church?? The church, ANY church, has zero to do with this conversation. Agreed -churches and caring individuals have done very admirable things for many groups worldwide, feeding the poor among them - regardless of their views on abortion. <BR/><BR/>They've also had a history of doing some really horrible things in the name of religion...ever hear of the Inquisition? <BR/><BR/><BR/>MICHELLE - what exactly would you have me look up? <BR/><BR/>Everyone could offer up an anecdote of a really friendly racist or the bigot who donates tons of money to worthy causes. I personally even really like some pro-life supporters - like regina, for example :)<BR/><BR/>In general, support of educational programs prior to becoming pregnant and support of women after they have become pregnant - whether in making their decision to move or not move forward with her pregnancy or in the form of support for her after having chosen to keep a child when she may be woefully ill-equipped to do so is, to put it mildly - lacking. <BR/><BR/>And that is true whether you have an example, an anecdote or statistics about where your church's money goes to help others. <BR/><BR/>If it is indeed so sad for you that this is what i see, please share your information with me...i am always happy to learn.<BR/><BR/><BR/>lisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-80735113477235780622008-08-30T14:43:00.000-07:002008-08-30T14:43:00.000-07:00OT, but I must respond to: "pro-life conservatives...OT, but I must respond to: "pro-life conservatives seem to offer very little compassion out of the womb"<BR/><BR/>For the past 2000 years, the Catholic Church has fed, housed and clothed more people in need than any other group or institution in history. The Catholic Church, which is obviously pro-life, is and always has been a premier defender of ALL human rights.Barbarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00747308009364094199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-59222861927135425092008-08-29T14:06:00.000-07:002008-08-29T14:06:00.000-07:00/*Because the attacker has no right to terminate t.../*Because the attacker has no right to terminate the woman's pregnancy against her will - her CHOICE*/<BR/><BR/>Very interesting. So taking this logic, If the mother decides at a later point that she did indeed want this baby and that she made a mistake, is the abortion which was done previously as a choice, now become killing a baby?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-55607967190850741462008-08-29T13:24:00.000-07:002008-08-29T13:24:00.000-07:00Because the attacker has no right to terminate the...Because the attacker has no right to terminate the woman's pregnancy against her will - her CHOICE. <BR/> - and that's also relatively new legal territory. In most states the laws have focused on the harm done to a pregnant woman and the subsequent loss of her pregnancy, but not on the rights of the fetus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-43871362998984066412008-08-29T13:13:00.000-07:002008-08-29T13:13:00.000-07:00so, again, would you then say abortions should be ...so, again, would you then say abortions should be outlawed after 24 wks?<BR/>also, why does the baby have no rights if the mom wants to abort him but if it is killed by another person (aside from a dr doing an abortion) then that fetus is given rights and the killer can be charged with murder. why is that ok?Reginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01365663697222601526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-56227587255506051112008-08-29T13:03:00.000-07:002008-08-29T13:03:00.000-07:00Women are, obviously, known human persons. They ma...Women are, obviously, known human persons. They make up the majority of known human persons. Until personhood of a fetus is established, a women has rights it does not have. <BR/><BR/>The neocortex developes between 22-24 weeks. Basically that's the earliest gestational age at which the baby has at least a 50% chance (24 weeks) - "the point of viability." <BR/><BR/>that's when they are viable, imo<BR/><BR/>lisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-25685454345250734982008-08-29T12:59:00.000-07:002008-08-29T12:59:00.000-07:00pro-life conservatives seem to offer very little c...<I>pro-life conservatives seem to offer very little compassion out of the womb</I><BR/><BR/>It is sad that this is what you see. I assure you, it isn't true. I could offer examples, statistics, personal anecdotes, or you could just spend 15 minutes on your own trying to see if the pro-baby fighters put their money where their mouth is. If you look for truth instead of making broad generalizations, you will find it.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14591234069872271083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-77932362629997503252008-08-29T12:46:00.000-07:002008-08-29T12:46:00.000-07:00i wasn't calling names, honest ... i said 'self-ri...i wasn't calling names, honest ... i said 'self-righteous' outlook <BR/><BR/>i'm just saying that a lot of people feel good about an issue - they are doing the right thing - saving babies - but fail to look at the bigger picture as to why or the ramifications of that choice. <BR/> <BR/>here's a chart for abortion stats:<BR/><BR/>http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html<BR/><BR/>It also states that 79% of abortions take place before 10 weeks.<BR/><BR/>And i agree, you can be pro-life and not adopt. You have every right to every opinion. period. but as a society, government, movement, individual...whatever, we have an obligation to evaluate all factors - the big picture, if you will, and do the right thing for the children who *are* here<BR/><BR/>not everyone, so no name-calling here, but pro-life conservatives seem to offer very little compassion out of the womb<BR/><BR/>lisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-58859510330726115312008-08-29T12:33:00.000-07:002008-08-29T12:33:00.000-07:00Let me get this straight:You think it is okay to l...Let me get this straight:<BR/><BR/>You think it is okay to legislate that a viable fetus has the right to life and that a woman, unwilling to carry the baby to term, must relinquish her baby to the state? This would mean a c-section to remove the baby safely and allow the baby to be placed in a NICU unit to live. THAT is okay with you?<BR/><BR/>Like I said earlier, this would mean that as technology improves, so would the viability date - meaning that a woman who was 8 or 10 weeks along might have to have major abdominal surgery to have the viable fetus removed in order to save its life.<BR/><BR/>I just want to be clear. Because "viability" is not a concrete term, and we have to be willing to alter our definition as the technology improves if it is technology that determines viability.<BR/><BR/>And if viability is what makes a fetus "human", is it okay to call a doctor who performs late-term abortions a baby-killer? If the fetus is 22 weeks old, and viable, and therefore human, and therefore a baby, and he's killed, the person is a baby killer, right?<BR/><BR/>As for the separation of church and state: just because the Catholic Church and the federal government agree that stealing cars is wrong, does not mean that the state is legislating morality. Some things are both immoral for Catholics and plain wrong for everybody. Like murder.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Regina, you can close comments if this gets annoying.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14591234069872271083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-30595284550281299912008-08-29T12:27:00.000-07:002008-08-29T12:27:00.000-07:00so, if most abortions occur prior to 20 weeks (tho...so, if most abortions occur prior to 20 weeks (though you didnt answer the actual question, should abortions after 20 weeks be outlawed since the child might be viable?), most abortions do occur around 8-12 weeks. Well it has been recorded that a baby can begin sucking their thumb at 7 weeks and the heart starts beating as early as 4 weeks but likely at 5 weeks. Hm, a thumb and a heartbeat, if that ain't a baby, what the hell is it? I know i have lots of cells in my body and even if they wanted to form into a jumble and start rebelling, they arent going to form their own hearts!Reginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01365663697222601526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-172743492113263962008-08-29T12:00:00.000-07:002008-08-29T12:00:00.000-07:00not being funny at all, maybe a bit sarcastic. i ...not being funny at all, maybe a bit sarcastic. i was *fer real* when asking what society. I don't see any forced reproduction going on in this land of ours. Quite the contrary - PP, planned parenthood. Killing a generation one baby at a time! notice: BABY - it's not going to be a '57Chevy!Shellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09247122122635208849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-16496920358626195832008-08-29T11:52:00.000-07:002008-08-29T11:52:00.000-07:00and what is the effectiveness of education showing...and what is the effectiveness of education showing kids how to put condoms on cucumbers and how to take the pill. how much money is planned parenthood (who gets federal grants) spending on that education.<BR/>and thinking about how many aborted children could be clothed and fed, zero. you said aborted children. those children are now dead. <BR/>and we cant be so naive as to expect them to listen when we are sending mixed messages. that like saying 'don't smoke. smoking is bad for you. ::eye roll:: but i know you might want to smoke so here is a pack of marlboro lights because they are 'safer' then reds...but DONT actually smoke them ::wink, wink::Reginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01365663697222601526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-49713087588906518512008-08-29T11:46:00.000-07:002008-08-29T11:46:00.000-07:00"where is abstinence failing miserably? where is i..."where is abstinence failing miserably? where is it even being taught?"<BR/><BR/>Why, Abstinence-Only, a cornerstone of Bush's social agenda, of course. I handled the advertising for that program in NM. <BR/><BR/>The effectiveness of the program is about 50%. Half of all teenagers abstain from sex - with or without the education. Kids who take a 'virginity pledge' generally wait longer to have sex, but 88% of them eventually have premarital sex, too. <BR/><BR/>We spend, federally $176 million per year and millions more in state and local matching grants. Since 2005, nearly $900 million dollars has been spent and the results are the same for the kids who don't receive the education. <BR/><BR/>I call that failure.<BR/><BR/>Plus, think about how many aborted children you could have clothed and fed with all that money :)<BR/><BR/>We do need to provide kids with sex-education and I believe that at the core of these programs should be abstinence, but we cannot be so naive as to believe that just because we tell teenagers not to do something, they're going to always listen. <BR/><BR/>lisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-89537473843502655162008-08-29T11:36:00.000-07:002008-08-29T11:36:00.000-07:00wooah,dont start calling names....self-righteous, ...wooah,dont start calling names....self-righteous, you think you are right that it isnt a baby, i think i am right that it is therefore saying babies are being killed is accurate to me. <BR/>again, where's your info in terms of only 1% of abortions...95% of statistics are made up 50% of the time. <BR/>and hitler did refuse to see jews as people-dehumanizing leads to desensitizing. <BR/>sure, we can ALL do a better job of helping others out, however just because i havent personally adopted anyone doesnt mean i have no right to being pro-life.Reginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01365663697222601526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-6501189308909150652008-08-29T11:29:00.000-07:002008-08-29T11:29:00.000-07:00A fetus is not the same thing as human being. It ...A fetus is not the same thing as human being. It is a potential human being. Just like a fertilized egg is a *potential* chicken, but it is still an egg and NOT a chicken YET. <BR/><BR/>So - viability IS the real determiner of when life begins, and, although convenient to label people as baby killers to promote a cause, it isn't really accurate or fair. <BR/><BR/>by all means if a fetus can be removed and cared for by someone else at whatever point the woman wants to cease involvement - then let's try that<BR/><BR/>only 1% of abortions in this country occur after the 20th week of pregnancy - no one is talking about killing babies, call them babies when they can live outside the womb<BR/><BR/>also - i find the Jewish / black slavery argument as ridiculous as I find the one about 12-year-olds and the mentally handicapped. <BR/><BR/>when i bring up other issues it is because it is very easy to have a self-righteous 'save the babies' outlook, but what people very often fail to do is to look at the big picture - which includes the care of unwanted kids, women's rights issues ...<BR/><BR/>Have you adopted any kids, funded Head Start or any other early childhood programs for disadvantaged youth? Out of the womb, the pro-life movement / conservatives offer very little compassion for people being faced with a choice or for the resulting children. <BR/><BR/><BR/>lisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-321222149767689122008-08-29T09:52:00.000-07:002008-08-29T09:52:00.000-07:00As far as breast cancer links are concerned - it i...As far as breast cancer links are concerned - it is not one site -it is the latest information from the foremost cancer research institutes. There were studies that hypothesized a link, but new research shows them to be unfounded<BR/>lisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3490438591472363150.post-66119765080127267032008-08-29T09:47:00.000-07:002008-08-29T09:47:00.000-07:00shelly - Fortunately, religion is SUPPOSED to stay...shelly - Fortunately, religion is SUPPOSED to stay out of our laws. Morality of abortion is a religious question. People have different views - what gives any one religion the right to impose their religious opinions on everyone else? If I don't agree, the law doesn't apply to me?<BR/><BR/>Opening up a religious debate here is an entirely different affair.<BR/><BR/>The society i speak of is the one that would not allow women to have *complete* control of their reproductive rights - all of them. Birth-control, adoption, abortion -pregnancy can happen, does happen, but women should be able to PERSONALLY decide for themselves if they want to be mothers. If you take away that choice, then they have lost reproductive rights in this or in any society. were you trying to be funny?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com